Curse

Brigand · Jul 18, 2007, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Lately I've been messing around with necro's in PvP, and have come to a build that seems to work pretty well for me, but there may be ways obvious to more experienced players to improve it that elude me.

The build:

[skill]Dark Pact[/skill][skill]Vampiric Gaze[/skill][skill]Life Siphon[/skill][skill]Faintheartedness[/skill][skill]Life Transfer[/skill][skill]Enfeeble[/skill][skill]Return[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

Main focus - heavy degen, spammable armor ignoring damage, large leech capability
Secondary - melee reduction

Armor: Mostly radiant, with energy runes. Also, Blood and Curse runes.

Rationale:

After playing a few weeks in the random arenas, I noticed a disproportionately high number of melee types, especially assassins and warrior monks (paladins). These guys invariably went straight for the monk/rit, and if such a healer didn't exist, then on to the next 'squishie' in the list, (which I always am, not really enjoying playing melee). Sins especially seem to have a cocky attitude, regularly leaving their support and healing behind to mindlessly shadow step to a squishie and unload. Almost every caster I played seemed to get destroyed by a Moebius Strike build, or something involving Shroud of Silence or the like. Hence this build, which seems to be pretty good at keeping me alive, and putting pressure on whatever class is the priority target.

Playstyle: I tend to hang back behind the front lines. If there are no sins, I will start out by enfeebling whatever melee moves into range to attack. If a sin ports to our healer, the first cast is also enfeeble on the sin. This usually greatly reduces their attack capability, and allows the healer to keep up with the spike. If the sin (or melee) is on someone else, I will follow up with Life Siphon, and Faintheartedness. This puts around 6 health degen on the character, for a healthy life drain, with the added benefit of further reducing a melee characters effectiveness, by slowing them, AND increasing my health regen. After that, it's spamming dark pact (sac. health for low cost shadow nuke), follwed by vampiric gaze (gain that health right back, and further damage them). Because health degen is capped at -10 pips, Life Transfer is saved for emergencies. If I am not under attack, I'll slap it on top of the other hexes - even putting 4 health regen on the target won't slow their life loss, and dark pact, gaze spam will finish them off. (I sometimes try to blanket the elite hex with one of the otehr 2) The other use is when I come under concentrated attack - life transfer plus vampiric gaze seems to do a very good job of keeping me alive even under heavy fire - high health regen, plus a decently spammable life steal.

Also, if the **** really hits the fan, I can use my single, unspecced assasin spell, return, to get the hell out of dodge, and let my life regen from Life Transfer.

I've noticed that a lot of people seem to ignore the degen until it's too late. They swing away blindly until they reach 50% health, and then realize how fast their health is dropping and panic, stopping attacking me and running away - the worst thing they can do. As soon as they panic, my health starts regen'ing, and it simple to reapply the hexes and spam them to death. Good players don't fall for this, and seem to react as soon as the first hex is on them.

The obvious drawbacks?? Obviously, hex removal reduces this build's effectiveness by over 50%. I can still spam dark pact and vampiric gaze, but without the additional health degen, these are ineffective in killing someone.

Also, there are a few builds which are not hex friendly, which I seem to have trouble dealing with. (There is one particular Dervish Avatar form that dehexes that tends to kill me - Avatar of Dwayna, I think??)

Energy management hasn't been too much of an issue. Once the hexes are on them, I simply let them do their work while my mana regens, throwing out the occasional low mana cost (but health sac) from Dark Pact. Also, my spells have been chosen to be relatively low cost - all are 5, or 10 mana at most. That, plus mana runes seems to keep me pumping away.

Other than that, it seems to be doing pretty well for me so far. I am a relative newbie at this game, but I have enjoyed this build a lot. Like I said, the biggest threat to me so far in Random and Team Arenas has been from sins, both attacking me and our healer, and this will quickly decimate a sin who doesn't withdraw and respond appropriately - and the aforementioned dervs with insta hex removal.

I make no claims as to it's effectiveness in 'big boy' PvP, such as GvG and the like. In fact, I'll go as far as to say it's an unwise build for large scale PvP, in which case it's only useful as a pressure tactic - in real PvP a) a healer is going to cover your health and heal you through the degen, and b) they will likely have a good hex remover.

As for RA where you have less than a 50-50 chance of being in a decent group (much less of actually having a healer), it does a pretty good job. I hate depending on someone else to heal me in RAs, as most seem to be even weaker at the game than me.

I am interested, and would welcome constructive criticism. I am spending a lot of time in the RAs and TAs trying to learn the game so I can get competent enough to get in a decent guild and try out GvG. I've tried some of the more obvious modifications, like Soul Barbs (but the damage from 3 hexes doesn't equal the damage I am giving up from the replaced spell). Any help/comments??? I have seen no builds like it on PVX, but it seems like a pretty basic and obvious build.

Thanks!!

ZenRgy · Jul 18, 2007, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Less life transfer, more spoil victor, less transfer, more price of failure.

Moloch Vein · Jul 18, 2007, 06:02 PM // 18:02

You haven't specced the attributes, neither have you specced the strength of runes.

Also, I have yet to see a necromancer able to "spam" a 10e spell in RA with no energy management.

Dark Pact isn't a desirable spell in most circumstances, there are far better things to put your slots into - If you absolutely must use a saccing attack spell, use Blood of the Aggressor.

Life Transfer is a horrible elite, and as you're set as N/A you aren't even able to echo it. As Zen mentions if you really must go Blood you would do better with SV.

Signet of Lost Souls would perhaps be an idea with this build but I'm not aware if you have points in Soul Reaping or not.

Brigand · Jul 18, 2007, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenRgy

Less life transfer, more spoil victor, less transfer, more price of failure.

I like both of those skills, and can defintely see their potential, but neither heal me. I've actually tried them in a build before, and I still seem to get burned down before they finish off my attacker.

What would you combine with those spells to keep me alive without a healer??

Brigand · Jul 18, 2007, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

You haven't specced the attributes, neither have you specced the strength of runes.

My attribute as maxed Blood and Curses, with the leftovers in Soul Reaping. Runes are both minor or major. I'm at work, so I can't remember the actually points used, but it's 14 in blood, and 12 in curses. I don't use any of the superior runes for my skills, but I do use the best mana runes (and I have a superior vigor rune (+50 health, non-stacking) I usually fit in).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Also, I have yet to see a necromancer able to "spam" a 10e spell in RA with no energy management.

Dark Pact isn't a desirable spell in most circumstances, there are far better things to put your slots into - If you absolutely must use a saccing attack spell, use Blood of the Aggressor.

Well, the reason I put the 2 spells in is for the reason you say I am lacking (energy). Dark Pact is cheap...only 5 mana. This is likely due to the fact you have to sacrifice health to use it. As I am always regenning health, it's totally not an issue - its the cheapest cost, for the highest damage return I can get for a single, non-combo spell. With mana regen, and ongoing health regen, I can cast it all day.

Vamp Gaze is 'spammable' in that I can cast it every time it's up - the recharge is a factor considering the frequency of casts. True, the net return is negative, but the cast rate vs how much it costs per cast is only slightly negative. Stopping casting for only a brief time makes up the deficit. Maybe I should not call it 'spamming', but it is used frequently.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Life Transfer is a horrible elite, and as you're set as N/A you aren't even able to echo it. As Zen mentions if you really must go Blood you would do better with SV.

Here, I really can't see why you consider LT a 'horrible elite'. -8 health degen on target, +8 health regen on self, almost instantly cast. How is this 'horrible'? I have acknowledged that hex removal is an issue, but it is just as effective at countering the 2 spells above - SV is just as quickly removed, and you got no benefit out of it. Everyone talks about SV, but I don't have as high an opinion of it. Smart players will simply stop attacking/casting (which admittedly is a GREAT benefit), but I can't force them to kill themselves if they pay attention. Also, it's worthless if the condition isn't met.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Signet of Lost Souls would perhaps be an idea with this build but I'm not aware if you have points in Soul Reaping or not.

I don't have a lot of point in soul reaping - don't really see the point in a marginal return for 4v4 PvP. In large scale battles, it probably rocks...but in RA, a little energy/health is not as big a deal. If someone dies, you already have a huge advantage as it is. I dunno, maybe I am missing something about soul reaping.

Moloch Vein · Jul 18, 2007, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Life Transfer has a 30 seconds recharge time.

Pick Me · Jul 18, 2007, 06:35 PM // 18:35

I agree, drop Life Transfer.

What is your attribute set-up? How many points into Curses do you have? Soul Reaping? Shadow Arts?

You could use Insidious Parasite with Enfeeble. Plague Touch instead of Faintheartedness. That way, any Assassin starts to chain you, you use E + IP and PT if they send conditions on you.

Spoil Victor is good if you sac a lot.

Razz Thom · Jul 18, 2007, 07:05 PM // 19:05

i think prob price of failure in place of life transfer. stops melee quickly and leaves your other combos intact. also it last 30 seconds and recharge in 20. plus with enfeeble it makes attacking pointless. if energy isn't a big concern you could even swap enfeeble for reckless haste(more expensive/but stupid melee'ers die very quick.)

WildmouseX · Jul 18, 2007, 07:09 PM // 19:09

it depends alot on which PvP you're playing, for example my AB build owns all in AB, holds it's own in HoH, and completely sucks hairy ass in RA. generaly speaking, unless you're spikeing stay away from blood. furthermore, you're build is asking you to spread you skills through 4 different attributes, which you've probly got runes for that either arn't very effective, or are reduceing your overall life.

the primary job of a sin is to leave the saftey of his line, and spike the back line of the opposeing side - so as a caster, you are always the primary target of a sin, and they are stacked to drop you fast. gathering from your post, being anti mele, in RA with self healing is what you're concerned with.... so sticking with N/A i'd go something like...

[skill]faintheartedness[/skill][skill]spiteful spirit[/skill][skill]reckless haste[/skill][skill]price of failure[/skill][skill]signet of lost souls[/skill][skill]signet of sorrow[/skill][skill]caltrops[/skill][skill]shadow refuge[/skill]

this way you've only got three attributes to put points into (curse, soul reaping, shadow arts) got faintheartedness to slow down mele attacks with a little degen.... SS and PoF to do direct armor ignoreing damage, with reckless haste fuleing both of them....spamible sig to deal direct damage, another sig for healing and E-management..... caltrops to cripple the sins so you can get away, and shadows refuge for your main heal.

if you must bring a res sig, i'd drop sig of sorrow or faintheartedness since reckless haste negates half of it's slowdown anyway

Dr Strangelove · Jul 18, 2007, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Really, if you want a PvP necro, run [wiki]spoil victor[/wiki] [wiki]spiteful spirit[/wiki] or [wiki]reaper's mark[/wiki] you can make ok builds with other stuff, maybe, life transfer is not one of those "other stuff"

Cathode_Reborn · Jul 20, 2007, 05:22 AM // 05:22

at 16 blood:

Life Transfer, -8degen for 12 secs = 192hp lost.
Spoil Victor, triggered twice = 205hp lost.

SV is tons more spammable. LT sucks simply cause it has a fat recharge. Besides that, all it does is a very short burst of high degen/regen, nothing devastating or special. I guarantee you that as you play your nec more often, you'll realize how powerful SV is. Reaper's Mark is another good skill if you decide to pump up your Soul Reaping high as it's degen is very long lasting and can cause much more life loss than LT.

mrmango · Jul 20, 2007, 05:33 AM // 05:33

I commend you Brigand for trying to intelligently show your reasoning, by far one of the most people trying to start PVP. And I'm a r2 scrub who won't know much more than you either, but I do know how LT sucks, the recharge and it only being degen/regen for short time. I agree with what has been said to respond to you.

ZenRgy · Jul 20, 2007, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Oh yeah if you have points in shadow arts, why not try [skill]Feigned Neutrality[/skill], it's rather handy. In my corrupt enchantment RA build I run [skill]Signet of lost souls[/skill] and Feigned Neutrality as my self heals.

Brigand · Jul 20, 2007, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Lots of good info here for me to digest and try to incorporate into my strategy. Thank you guys for all the responses.

I see a lot of Life Transfer hate, and it seems to be mainly centered around a long recharge time. I should add that a large part of reason I am so fond of it is that it's effective no matter what class I am facing - health return and degen no matter who it's on.

This is also a lot of the reason I have been resistant to taking elites which rely on my opponent to do something for it to trigger, such as Spoil Victor.

But, in response to overwhelming support to this elite, I am going to try it out. What pushed me over the edge was the post about Feigned Neutrality above. I initially didn't like Feign Neutrality either, as it essentially took me out of the fight for what amounted to essentially the same health return as transfer life, without the extra damage. But...if I could simply slap on Spoil Victor and then activate Feign Neutrality, maybe this is an effective counter to sins.

Now if only I could figure out what the hell to do about Shroud of Silence. I HATE that skill with a passion

Thanks again guys! If you have more thoughts, plz post them so I can absorb a little more info about the metagame!

glountz · Jul 20, 2007, 02:02 PM // 14:02

In your posts brigand you seem to want to counter sins.
But you dislike SV.
Some quick scenarios:.
Scenario 1:
A sin gank you. You casted Life siphon+transfer. Sin unload his combo. You're at -7 degen, deepwounded, stay at +1 regen. HE finishes you. Life transfer ends. You've done to the sin 20hp degen in 5 seconds, so 100 damage. He killed you. He won.

Scenario 2
A sin gank you. You put SV and Insidious parasite on his head.
Scenario 2a: He unloads his combo. He kills himself, doing something like 65 average damage per attack minus 45 from insidious, 5 attacks, 20*5= 100 HP done to you (+DW poison and bleeding). You won.
Scenatio 2b: He does not unload his combo. You continue to hex others ennemies, while he can't do anything until his monk remove his hexes. Unless the said monk has divert hexes, or is not busy countering the damage of your teamates it will take a long time. You won.

On a side note: Enfeeble must be put on warriors, not sins. Most damage from sins are +XX damage skills, armor ignoring damage. Enfeeble will hamper a lot more wars than sins.
Equally, try to put Faintheartedness on rangers. +50% longer attacks on already quite long refire rates destroy completely their ability to do damage.

Moloch Vein · Jul 20, 2007, 02:05 PM // 14:05

If you really, REALLY feel the need to counter those lame ass sin builds with Shroud as elite you need only bring Hex Breaker. Of course this requires you to go /Me. However Hex Breaker is very tough on sins because many of their attack chains get messed up if they can't hex you.

Vow of Silence and Shadow Form can be killed by Chiblains.

deadkid · Jul 25, 2007, 01:13 PM // 13:13

dont go hard on life transfer because thee is a reason that life transfer has 30 sec recharge time its a spell that used correctly makes other ppl beg for mercy just echoed it use it again with n/me and then use mesmer degen and interupt hex removal and then cast again both and use black out and start hitting with the staff and you will see how the 10 dmg from staff (20 on 60al) makes the difference and even used correctly you can pwn monks with it in RA i made so many monks telling me im a cheater because of killing then only with life degen

ZenRgy · Jul 25, 2007, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadkid

dont go hard on life transfer because thee is a reason that life transfer has 30 sec recharge time its a spell that used correctly makes other ppl beg for mercy just echoed it use it again with n/me and then use mesmer degen and interupt hex removal and then cast again both and use black out and start hitting with the staff and you will see how the 10 dmg from staff (20 on 60al) makes the difference and even used correctly you can pwn monks with it in RA i made so many monks telling me im a cheater because of killing then only with life degen

I'm not trying to troll but please, for the love of God do not follow this advice for all the reasons stated earlier about life transfer.

samcobra · Jul 25, 2007, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Life transfer is horrible, 'nuff said

deadkid · Jul 26, 2007, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenRgy

I'm not trying to troll but please, for the love of God do not follow this advice for all the reasons stated earlier about life transfer.

im reading your posts around the forum especially necromancer related ones and i see you are not a noob at the game so talking about how life transfer is bad skill is just flaming around because good players can put every skill into good use wich i do and i have been using life transfer for a long time and i dont say it can be used every where and that its the best elite skill that someone can take but telling its a alwful skill means you have never played against me coz life transfer is great regeneration (self heal) same time it puts great pressure on foes and can be combined with dmg spells it doesnt have to be echoed even coz used correctly it can bring you kill every 30 sec wich is not bad in 2 mins arena this makes 4 ills and enemy team has only 4 players wanted to write the exat use of the skill so you can see what im talking about but i dont have time now coz im at work maybe later i will show you how to use it it verry diffcult to hit it in exat time because you have to consider it cant be used for 30 secs but experienced players have instincts about timeing in arenas and its not much of a problem spreading destrucion with it